Dorothy: [00:00:00] What is a non profit guru’s advice for people who want to start a non profit? Don’t. Meet Ronnie Hagerty, one of the members of the Board of Directors for The Rose. She’s been there for us many years, helping us at pivotal times, but during this conversation, Ronnie talks about how she helps non profit organizations through the United Way and the important role they play in our society. But in this episode, she shares what happened when her dear friend was diagnosed with breast cancer and the many trials that she faced and how just being a friend was the most important job she’s ever had.
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[00:01:00] Let’s Talk About Your Breasts, a different kind of podcast presented to you by The Rose, Breast Center of Excellence and a Texas treasure. You’re going to hear frank discussions about tough topics and you’re going to learn why knowing about your breast could save your life.
Ronnie, I’m so glad that you’re here with us today. And for our listeners, Ronnie has been on our board for quite a while, and you are also in our world known as the guru of nonprofits. Everybody says if you want to know anything about nonprofits, you need to go to Ronnie. So Ronnie Hagerty, thank you so much for joining us today. And tell me just a little something about how you got into nonprofits.
Ronnie: Well, it’s a very odd story. So my early career was in advertising and marketing, lived in New York, actually worked right on Fifth Avenue, which was very exciting for a young person. And [00:02:00] then my husband was transferred to Houston and when I first got here I did a little bit of work in, um, with a couple of PR firms. And then I decided that I wanted to go into something pure and wholesome where there was no politics, that everyone loved each other and were good and kind and well wishing. Um, so I decided to make the switch to, uh, non profits. And I started at MD Anderson Cancer Center, which is quite a remarkable institution.
And, um While I was there, I was a member of the Junior League and I was invited to be an outside board representative to United Way. and learned that they had a program that served non profit organizations. Well, I didn’t really know anything about non profit organizations, but I thought, well, that sounds interesting.
And so I did a couple of marketing workshops for them and learned that there was a position open that was overseeing what is essentially a consulting practice that serves non profits. And I thought, well, I think I’ll throw my hat into that ring. Uh, long story short, here I am low those many years [00:03:00] later, and if you ask me how many years it’s been, I probably wouldn’t tell you. Um, I just say a long time.
Dorothy: A long time.
Ronnie: Yeah, a long time. And if you do anything long enough, I think you get pretty good at it.
Dorothy: Oh, yes. But you are exceptional at it. Come on now, we, you run board, uh, retreats. You, you advise, uh, new executives how to maneuver through the nonprofit world, and I think some of the best things about the United Way that I’ve experienced has been the leader circle.
Ronnie: Right. I do have the great good fortune of working with the amazing people like you who lead nonprofit organizations. And once upon a time, I thought I would like to be a nonprofit executive and having spent a fair amount of time really understanding the business a little bit better and understanding the role that, that people like you play, I thought there’s no way. I’d rather sell shoes at Macy’s, that the work that you do is quite remarkable [00:04:00] and you have to have so many different skills. You’re a diplomat, a therapist, a leader, a counselor, a manager. Um, that the non profit CEO really is, um, alone. It is a very lonely job. And so one of the things that we started at United Way was what we call our leader circles. And those are monthly facilitated meetings of non profit CEOs. And some of the groups, yours included, have been meeting for decades, perhaps?
Dorothy: Decades, yes.
Ronnie: A long time.
Dorothy: Yes.
Ronnie: But they’ve turned out to be extremely important resources for the members of those groups. Most of my work nowadays is really with non profit boards. And as some wise person once said, when you’ve seen one board, you’ve seen one board. They’re all different. They change. New people come on, seasoned veterans roll off, and the dynamic changes. And so I’ve had such an amazing experience really meeting all [00:05:00] kinds of different people and understanding the work that nonprofits do in this community. I’ve often thought if nonprofits decided to take a day off, the Houston would come to a screeching halt.
Dorothy: Now, talk a little bit more about that. Because so few, I think people have this idea that a non profit is there to do good. Or, you know, oh my gosh, you know, you, you must love the work you’re doing. And I hear that often.
And, uh, I, I don’t think, They realize what part of the society’s structure that we really fill, you know, it’s a gap there. How would you explain it?
Ronnie: Well, that’s true. We, I will start with my, one of my favorite soapbox statements, and that is non profits are businesses. So it is incumbent on non profit organizations to operate using best business practices that the for profit world uses. Now obviously we’re different. Our mission is quite different from that of a corporation. But the reality is we have [00:06:00] to manage our money effectively. Whoever gave us the name non profit, did us no favors because that implies to the general public, “oh, you don’t need money.” And yet we need chairs and tables and staff and computers. And we spend far too much of our time raising money and less time than we’d like providing the services that our mission, um, recommend that we provide. So we are, I think that in terms of industry, we are number three after manufacturing and retail. Um, we are five or six percent of the GDP. So we are big business and as you said, nobody really believes that, that most people think that, Oh, you’re such lovely people doing this sweet work. You get paid for that. Oh, I didn’t know that.
Dorothy: Right.
Ronnie: And I’ve actually had conversations with, with board chairs who’ve said, well, they should be happy to do this work. Why should we pay them? And I say, well, do you pay your employees? And well, of course. It’s a [00:07:00] very interesting dynamic.
Dorothy: Oh, it is.
Ronnie: And there is, the public perception of non profits is, is rather peculiar.
Dorothy: Mm hmm.
Ronnie: They really just don’t understand what we do.
Dorothy: And we have all these, uh, arbitrary, uh, regulations or expectations that the public has, like, how much did you pay, you know, how much are you paying the fundraisers? How much are you paying, you know, your administrative staff? And I remember one time you challenged me with, now, Dorothy, is that really reasonable?
You know, because we were talking about trying to keep the, those costs low and you’re absolutely right. You have to have that fundraising department to raise money, to keep everything going. And you have to have your administrative department. It’s, it’s really, um, very, it’s just not balanced.
Ronnie: Well, nobody asks the major oil companies or the banks or the manufacturers, Well, what is your overhead? And that’s a common question that we get all the time and, [00:08:00] um, does it matter? Most of our overhead is staff, really and truly, and you know, it takes people to do work and you can cut, cut, cut, but then what do you have left?
The quality of the service deteriorates your ability to provide the services that your clients expect and deserve diminishes. Again, it’s this very peculiar standard of measurement, and I think we’re working hard to move away from that. Um, we talk about the starvation cycle in the non profit sector, and, um, why is that?
We, the problem is, we have spent so much time doing good, we are terrible advocates for ourselves. So, rather than being in Austin or Washington saying wait a minute folks, let’s get a grip here and let’s see what we really are contributing to the economy, to the society, to your voters frankly, um, that when you have those kind of conversations, they’re usually shocked.
Dorothy: Oh, yes.
Ronnie: And some issues [00:09:00] do have lobbyists, and by the way, we are perfectly free to have lobbyists. It is quite legal. Um, domestic violence, for an example, is, is one, um, area where there are lobbyists trying to communicate the impact of domestic violence on families, on society, um, but most issue areas don’t have the resources and, um, we have to learn to do a better job of it.
Dorothy: That’s, that is excellent. Excellent advice. But you have another, that I’ve heard you say many times, when people say, Oh, I want to start a non profit.
Ronnie: Oh, yes. That is my.
Dorothy: Yes. So.
Ronnie: That is my number one soapbox. That when I first started to do this, and people would call and say, I want to start a non profit. I think, Oh, isn’t that lovely? How can I help you? And I would spend, you know, 30, 45 minutes on the phone talking with them. If someone calls me now and has that same inquiry, my immediate answer is don’t. There are, in the Houston metro area, approximately 32,000 501c [00:10:00] something or others. About a third of those are 501c3s, the charitable or educational organizations like The Rose.
But do the math on that. You can’t tell me there are no redundancies, there’s not duplication. And again, if someone will listen to me for 30 or 45 minutes, I will try to talk them out of it. Um, every couple of times during the year, I’ll do a workshop entitled how to start a non profit. And people will come and I will say, I’m going to give you an honest preparation for this session. My goal here is to talk you out of this. And at the end of the session, I will always say, well, was I successful? Did I talk anybody out of it? One or two people might raise their hands, but most of them they’re gung ho, they’re going to go forward and do their thing. And I’m thinking, here we go again.
Dorothy: Here we go again.
Ronnie: It’s just, um, it, and I don’t want to discourage innovation and entrepreneurship because that’s part of our Texas culture, but you can’t tell me that there aren’t so many [00:11:00] duplicate programs. There are many, many programs in search of a home. They aren’t really non profits. They’re, the, it is far too easy. The IRS, who terrifies all of us, has made it way too easy to start a non profit organization. And the result is that you have all of these odd programs floating all over town, doing a little bit of good here and a little bit of good there, and then some not so much good.
Dorothy: And people don’t see this either, but We are in competition.
Ronnie: Oh, yeah.
Dorothy: For that dollar, right and I I am just amazed I think when I was starting all this and younger, you know, one of the things that you drilled into me was who are you collaborating with? You know? How can you you don’t need to be in that part of it? I mean really and you know I, I used to say it was because we were so small that we collaborated with everyone. But really, that’s the only way to get a bigger, uh, [00:12:00] job done. If, if we can just come together. It’s hard though. And nobody trusts each other.
Ronnie: Where there’s money involved.
Dorothy: Where there’s money involved, yes. And then it always comes down to, well, how, how is it being distributed? It’s, it’s interesting, and yet, I wouldn’t be in any other position. I mean, it, it’s—
Ronnie: That’s evident.
Dorothy: Yeah, it’s just—
Ronnie: What you’ve done is quite remarkable. I mean, you’re an inspiration day in and day out, year in and year out. And, you know, when we hear the, the stories of, of women who’ve come through The Rose, and how different their lives would have been had they not discovered you, come across you, encountered The Rose. It’s pretty powerful stuff.
Dorothy: Oh, well, we have been supported by this community. Had lots and lots of help. Honestly. You know, I just don’t, I can’t imagine trying to start a Rose now. It would be a totally different world. Totally [00:13:00] different time. And people are always saying to me, why don’t you go to XYZ and set up one. And I go, it’s just not the same. You know, we have, we’re in a different world now. But I am so glad The Rose was there when it was. For as long as it’s been, and you’ve heard me say this, I never dreamed we’d still be doing this. I always thought we’d either find a cure for cancer, or we’d figure out how to take care of uninsured people who wouldn’t have an insured.
So, that’s my naivety.
Ronnie: Haven’t quite gotten there yet, have we?
Dorothy: No, we haven’t gotten to either one of those. But you knew about The Rose, even, before you ever became on our board, ever became a member of our board. And so I want you to share that story with us.
Ronnie: Well, I remember that you were and are in one of our leader circles and so knew your name, knew the organization, and, um, one of my co workers was [00:14:00] diagnosed with breast cancer. And I remember vividly her saying to me in passing that she’d, um, she was about to remarry. And I remember her telling me in passing that she had had a physical and that they found a lump and it was no big deal and she wasn’t going to do anything about it. And I said, no, you can’t do that. And she and I had known each other in a past life.
Our kids went to the same school, but we really didn’t know each other well. And at some point when there was a position open, I had the good fortune to recruit her. And so that’s how we wound up working together. And oh no, it’s going to be fine. It’s not a big deal. So, okay. A while later, um, and my memory is probably foggy on some of the details, she went back, had a biopsy, and it was cancer.
And that began quite a saga. Um, you know, it’s funny the things that you remember, that [00:15:00] she was trying to go to MD Anderson to get some additional testing done, and the healthcare system that was providing her insurance was being very uncooperative. And finally got it approved and she needed some films that they weren’t giving her.
And so I decided to take it upon myself and march over to this medical plaza and say, I need those films. And they, of course, were not being very cooperative. And so I figured this out. This is my New York background, I think, that I got very loud and I turned to people in the room and I said, you all better listen to what I’m going to say, because this is not a good place to get health care. If you are going to get your health care here, you might want to rethink it. And all of a sudden someone came forward and said, here are your films.
Dorothy: Whoa.
Ronnie: I, when I think about it, I’m surprised I gave them to me. I wasn’t the patient, but I remember bringing the films up to my friend or my co worker and so she was able to move forward and at MD Anderson and begin [00:16:00] treatment there.
And I have vague, random memories. throughout her treatment of sitting with her in the evening while they were doing tests and she was drinking big gallon jugs of this awful looking white stuff for some sort of radiation testing and um, just what a process it was. I had no idea. I’m, I’ve been very fortunate. No one in my family had ever had cancer, much less breast cancer. I remember once she started this experience that my mom had a scare and had a biopsy, but I wasn’t living at home and didn’t have the financial resources to fly home and be a support. And I, when I think back, I, she must have thought I was pretty cold hearted about the whole thing, but I didn’t know. And so anyhow, moving forward with this journey, um, through surgery and as this was transpiring, the new husband decided or announced that that’s not what he signed on for. [00:17:00]
Dorothy: Oh my.
Ronnie: Just what you need, right?
Dorothy: Just what you need.
Ronnie: Just what you need. So, um, it became evident that that living arrangement was not going to work out. And so a group of us, you being one of them, and the members of the leader circle got together and we decided that we were going to move her. And I had a friend who I knew had a couple of apartments, and I, so I called her and I said, you know, are any, either of your apartments vacant right now? Well, it just happened one of them was.
And so we were able to, um, arrange for the rental and showed up on a Saturday morning, perhaps you remember that, me with a box truck, I had never driven a truck before, and I was just terrified, and moved her earthly goods down to the new place, which was such a better atmosphere, and I, I have always thought that perhaps her recovery started there.
Dorothy: Mm, I agree.
Ronnie: But, you know, it was just, It’s amazing to me as I think back, and as I said, I’m sure my memories [00:18:00] are foggy, but um, the way friends surrounded her and just pitched in and made sure that she got to appointments and that there was somebody with her and if, if it was a bad day, there was somebody available to run errands or to just sit.
And you know, one of my, sort of most prominent memories that has stayed with me all this time is that a friend of hers had come in from California to visit her, and it was a rough weekend, and I had gone over just to visit for a little bit, and I said, look, if you need anything, just call me, so I got a call at midnight on a Saturday night, and she said, I don’t know what to do, that she’s just beside herself, she’s kind of curled in a fetal position, and obviously in a lot of pain, I don’t know what to do.
So, I went over and I picked them both up and we went down to M. D. Anderson’s emergency room. I am one of those people that I am not a nurse. I do not have any Florence Nightingale in my blood and if there’s a problem, I want to go to the emergency room.
Dorothy: Mm hmm.
Ronnie: Okay. And [00:19:00] the wonderful doctor there explained that this was very common for someone who was going through surgery and then chemotherapy, that, that there were medications that could deal with this problem.
Well, I grew up in a family where my mother’s answer to everything was, get up, you’ll feel better. You know, very much pull up your bootstraps, that, stop feeling sorry for yourself. And so that was, I’m sure I wasn’t very helpful along the way. And learning suddenly that, that this, there’s help for things like this. You don’t have to suffer in silence. You don’t have to manage through this alone. But what I, I learned through her cancer journey is, um, all the different dimensions. You know, on the outside looking in, you think, okay, there’s surgery and then there’s chemotherapy and then you march on. Well, that’s not true.
It’s a very long process that lasts long after you ring the bell at MD Anderson and say this is my last treatment day. Um, and that was where I really became aware of what The Rose was doing and how, [00:20:00] um, what a difference The Rose could make to people who maybe didn’t have a circle of friends or didn’t have insurance or didn’t have the resources, um, and the resources are never enough anyhow.
Dorothy: Uh, never. And I remember that time. Everything seemed scary. I, I know even being in this world, it just was scary.
Ronnie: Oh, absolutely.
Dorothy: Yeah, there was, there was, you did know it was happening. And doctors were not known to communicate very well. And so it was just, it was just a different time than it is now. But I also remember that during that time, there just wasn’t a lot of information, period. So you didn’t know, is this a bad cancer? Is this a cancer I’m going to beat? Is it this? Is it, you know, it, it was a time of no answers. And When I think back, I’m still astounded at how women got through it. [00:21:00]
Ronnie: Well, you’ll laugh at this. I remember when I first learned that cancer was the diagnosis. I, of course, immediately went to Barnes Noble. And I think I bought every book they had on breast cancer and brought it over to her, which of course, I’m sure she never looked at any of them because you are so frantic and distracted and anxious. The last thing you want to do is read a thick book on breast cancer. And as you say, I’m sure they were all quite academic and medical and not user friendly the way there’s so much more material that’s available now. But I just laugh at myself. That’s my typical solution is go buy a book.
Dorothy: Go buy a book. Yes. Well, but I also think. What you did during that time is something that not everybody has friends like that. I mean, like you said, you know, some people have family that’ll step in, but not, friends are different.
Ronnie: True.
Dorothy: Friends, uh, I don’t know, have a different tolerance or a different whatever. But I wondered how, [00:22:00] and maybe you weren’t even aware of it then, how did you take care of you while you were trying to take care of her?
Ronnie: Oh, I I didn’t even, you wouldn’t think about something like that when you were, I’ve often, um, said that I am a fall weather friend. That if you need help, I’m there. But then other times, you might not hear from me for weeks or months at a time. I, I just get distracted. I was really fixated on what can I do. I wanted to fix it. And really, um, you know, there, there were so, the options were so limited in terms of things that you can do.
And, and I remember she was so good about researching what was available that when she had surgery, she found a woman who is a healer, who came and prayed with her and over her the day of surgery. And then I remember after that going to probably Whole Foods, if Whole Foods was even around, and buying these horrible looking green drinks that had, I don’t know, kale and all kinds of other [00:23:00] awful things in them that, and you know, she was so dedicated to doing anything that she could do to make herself healthy. And so, for me to go buy a drink was no big deal. I really was just, um, pleased. And I have to say that, um, United Way was very supportive during that time. Really allowing a lot of flexibility for a lot of us to, um, she had lots of moms.
Dorothy: And that, that made all the difference in the world too.
Ronnie: I think it probably, good days and bad days. I think there were days when she would have been happy to have fewer moms.
Dorothy: So since then, Ronnie, have you, have you had other friends with breast cancer? Have you had to be at that level of being a helper or?
Ronnie: Not at that level. But what I have tried to do is where I’ve had friends who’ve had, um, any kind of illness that, to just be available to drive to appointments or run errands or to go visit, um, [00:24:00] my, I don’t know whether you call it her, I guess a grand niece, my nephew’s wife died of cervical cancer and during that time, What can you do with a 30 year old woman and two young children?
I mean, there wasn’t much I could do. I tried to take food and, and go visit when I could. I mean, she had family and that was important. Um, and then, you know, I have a young friend right now who, I swear, I don’t know how many surgeries she’s had. She’s just, um, had endometriosis and all kinds of horrible things as a result of that.
And just to, She’s very young and what a hard life she’s had so far. So just to be available, you know, to check in with her and pick her up and take her and drop her off and pick up her mom at the airport and those kind of things, which is really not much, but, uh, I’ve just tried to be aware.
Dorothy: Mm hmm. Well, and I think that’s a big, big part of being a help. Not asking what can I do, but just going in and [00:25:00] doing it. I hear that over and over. There’s someone, someone just brought groceries. Someone, like you said, picked up my aunt at the airport. I mean, it was, it was those things that I think have come to mean so much to someone who’s, they need to concentrate on recovering.
Ronnie: Right.
Dorothy: You know, they don’t need to be worrying about all that other stuff. So, you know, you touched on this a little bit before, being an uninsured woman and what you know about The Rose, and now that you’ve been a part of our family.
Ronnie: Right.
Dorothy: Have you— have you seen anything different than what you remember back then?
See, for us, it’s just everyday.
Ronnie: Right.
Dorothy: It’s our everyday work. And when I hear other folks talk, I think, well, that’s what we do. But being uninsured and facing a disease is a pretty daunting time in people’s lives.
Ronnie: You know, honestly, I, I just didn’t think about it. I knew I [00:26:00] had health insurance, but I’ve been very fortunate. I Didn’t need it. And so if you don’t need it, you don’t think much about it, and really even understanding what it’s like when your insurance isn’t very good and it doesn’t cover things that you want it to cover or it won’t approve you’re going to a doctor who’s probably a better doctor or coming to The Rose to get care that you’re not going to get someplace else.
And I think there is a much greater awareness of the importance of insurance and what it means when you don’t have it. And maybe I was just particularly ignorant. I don’t know. I, I just don’t recall that it was much of a conversation. Of course, you know, as you get older, you think more about things like that.
But as a young person, I remember that, I’m sure we had, in the old days, you really didn’t have health insurance. You had what they called catastrophic insurance. It was, [00:27:00] you paid to go to the doctor and if you got in a car accident, then your insurance paid for your hospitalization. And over time, of course, that’s changed dramatically. And the affordable health care doesn’t seem to have gotten us where we want to go.
Dorothy: No, it hasn’t.
Ronnie: It’s created more problems in some ways than, um, um, then perhaps we had hoped. But at least it’s made it a topic of conversation. I think that it has created much greater awareness among people, perhaps like me, who really never thought about it before. And all of a sudden I thought, well, you know, I shouldn’t just take for granted the fact that I have health insurance. There are a lot of people out there who don’t, and that’s why I’m so passionate about The Rose, because there are so many women who try so hard to be strong and make it on their own, and you just hear these stories all the time about a woman who doesn’t go for treatment because she knows they can’t afford it.
She has to pay for groceries [00:28:00] or make sure that her children have what they need, their school supplies. And I think the more we can bring awareness of those realities to a broader public, the closer we’ll get to a world in which you know that you can take care of yourself, that you can get the treatment that you need, and you don’t have to make choices. You don’t have to compromise. Um, and, you know, as a woman, that’s what I want for all women. I, I want all of us to take good care of ourselves so we can take care of others. It’s, you know, it’s that whole thing about, uh, who cares for the caregiver.
Dorothy: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And that is so true. So I share that wish with you.
Ronnie: Yes.
Dorothy: I, I would love to be in that world. And because of people like you, Ronnie, honestly, you know, helping us nonprofits figure out the way to do it, that has, has been really so important.
Ronnie: Well, I [00:29:00] think it’s important to work and I’m grateful that I’ve had the opportunity to do it. And I’m, as I look at my fellow board members, I mean, there’s, we’ve got a pretty impressive group of people who are all committed to the same goal. They’re all focused on the same goal.
Dorothy: Yes, they are. And we are so grateful for them.
Ronnie: It’s exciting to be part of it.
Dorothy: Thank you for being with us today. Thank you for sharing this story and, um. We look forward to talking with you again soon.
Ronnie: Well, I’ve enjoyed it. Thanks Dorothy.
Post-Credits: Thank you for joining us today on Let’s Talk About Your Breasts. This podcast is produced by Speke Podcasting and brought to you by The Rose. Visit therose.org to learn more about our organization. Subscribe to our podcast. Share episodes with friends and join the conversation on social media using #LetsTalkAboutYourBreasts. We welcome your feedback and suggestions. Consider supporting The Rose. Your gift can make the difference to a person in need. Remember: self care is not selfish, It’s [00:30:00] essential.
