Dorothy: [00:00:00] What in the world does gut health have to do with brain health? Dr. Partha Nandi, a gastroenterologist and an internal medicine doctor, joins this podcast to address this topic. He writes about it in his book, Heal Your Gut, Save Your Brain. Inspired by his father’s stroke, he explores how gut health can influence Our brain functions. Dr. Nandi offers practical steps for improving both gut and brain health. Both of these are so critical for us to stay healthy.
When you subscribe to our show, you help us grow. Someone, you know, may need to hear this story. So please share with your family and friends and consider supporting our mission.
Let’s Talk About Your Breasts, a different kind of podcast presented to you by The Rose, the Breast Center of Excellence and a Texas treasure. You’re going to hear frank discussions about tough [00:01:00] topics, and you’re going to learn why knowing about your breast could save your life.
Dr. Nandi, it is just so good to have you with us today. So for our listeners, will you just tell us what your specialty is.
Dr. Nandi: Yeah, I’m a gastroenterologist. Well, thank you for having me first. I appreciate it. And, uh, I’m a gastroenterologist, uh, and internal medicine doc. So that’s my, my traditional practice.
Dorothy: And you’ve just written this incredible book, which is so easy to read. You know, I, I’ve read a lot of different things about gut health, but this one made some sense for a change. So tell us about your book.
Dr. Nandi: Well, that, that’s, that’s awesome to hear because I think that that’s my goal to make it, make it simple. You know, we, we, we as doctors are, are experts at having thousand dollar words that nobody understands. So that’s why we do that. So this book, let me just tell you what the motivation was. You know, my dad, to me, who is my big superhero, you know, had a stroke, [00:02:00] uh, and this is a healthy guy. By the way, my dad was a brilliant man. Unbelievable. So if you ever drive down the road in Texas or wherever you are and it’s nighttime and you’ll see these little reflective tape at the side of the road, well, he made that.
Um, he also worked with the U. S. Air Force, for example, and there’s a Bomb that, you know, was, was made in, in the runway. Well, he had a polymer that in 30 minutes would have a runway that was just as strong. So this is a smart, you know, un unicorn, brilliant, smartest man I’ve ever met. And you know, I was a practicing doctor when he had the stroke.
We did the whole workup, Dorothy and everything was negative and we were at a loss of why he had the stroke. I was said to myself, what could I have done differently at the time when he had the stroke, it’s like 2007, 2008. You know, he, we didn’t have the information we do now, but now we know that the gut and the brain are intimately related, meaning that they, they talk to each other all the time, you know. And they, [00:03:00] they, they send signals all the time. And I, and I talk, and I joke with my, with my kids that they talk to each other more than two teenagers at a Taylor Swift concert. That’s how much they talk. And, and they’re constantly sending signals. So there’s this fiber optic almost network, I call it, called the vagus nerve. Sending signals from the brain to the guts. The gut has to be healthy for the brain also to be healthy. in addition, we know that the gut, here’s the story right, the gut between blood on one side and poop on the other is one cell layer thick with some mucus surrounding it. So it’s very easy for stuff in, which is in the poop, to go into your blood if the gut wall is not strong.
And what happens is that when the gut wall is not strong, when the tiny leaks, imagine cheesecloth and having tiny holes in it. Little particles can go through. Begin. Beginning inflammation because your body doesn’t like particles going into the blood. And then inflammation then spreads to the [00:04:00] brain and it causes problems. So that’s the second way they’re connected.
The third one is that, you know, people talk about something called neurotransmitters or feel-good hormones. Serotonin is one of them. We talk about multiple drugs that the pharmaceutical industry has that increase the serotonin and boost it. Well, the gut makes. Over 90% of the serotonin that then goes to your brain and the rest of your body and helps its effect. So the gut and the brain are intimately collect, uh, connected. In this book, I may, I, I talk about how they’re connected, what the, what the state of our gut health is, which is not great, and how we can make changes to really help your gut to become healthy and hence, help your brain to become healthy. The statistics are startling, Dorothy. Every 3 seconds someone is diagnosed with dementia. Every 6 seconds, someone is diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. Every 4 minutes someone has a stroke. And often pass away with it. So we’re [00:05:00] talking about not some theoretical problem. We’re talking about a crisis that is catastrophic that is happening everywhere. That’s why I wrote this book. In honor of my dad, you know, I think he saved countless lives with this, with this reflective tape, and I’m hopeful that his tragic, you know, event that he had, hopefully uplifts people and saves lives again in a different way.
Dorothy: One of the things that I enjoyed about your book was that it wasn’t just about the things that we need to do with our diet, which there was a lot of there. And, uh, what did you call it? The sad standard American diet, you know, how not to be sad, yes. I said, what does that mean? But you also talked about those five pillars of health.
Now, I will tell you the one sentence that got my attention the most was how gut health can contribute to depression. And in our world, depression and feeling down has become acute. And I started to think, well, what if that really [00:06:00] does have something to do? So speak to those five pillars.
Dr. Nandi: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I, and I, first of all, thank you for reading the book. A lot of times I do these interviews and people have no idea what I’m talking about.
Dorothy: Oh, it was wonderful to get it. Thank you.
Dr. Nandi: Of course. Um, so, you know, back to your question, the five pillars, to me, you know, unless you have a why, you don’t have a how, right? So if you don’t have a reason to do something, you ain’t going to do it. You’re not going to do it. And that’s how it is for me and I think most people. So the first pillar is, the why. Purpose-driven living. Whether is gut health or whatever you want to improve and if you don’t have the why, if you don’t have purpose-driven living, then you’re not gonna be able to accomplish it. As far as how it pertains to health, not less than a dozen studies have shown that with purpose-driven living, you can of course have gut health, have brain health, but also decrease the [00:07:00] killers in our society as well. Cardiovascular disease, cancer, autoimmune disease, the list goes on and on. And you mentioned depression, anxiety, psychiatric disorders all are abated or decreased when you have purpose-driven living and, and, and people say, well, wait a minute. I, I have no idea. How is that possible? Well, I take you back to when we used to be hunters and gatherers. Right? And, and, and, and the joke I always have is that, listen, when we were out there, we wanted to have lunch and not be lunch. Right? That, that was our main goal, very purpose driven. And that was we had a fight or flight mechanism. Either you go after an animal and try to kill it or try to escape it, right.
I think that was very effective then. But now, when I’m in Detroit, every time I’m driving down the road, people very, very creatively tell me how much they don’t like the way I’m driving, how they’re driving too fast, too slow. They give me the Michigan hello, which is the middle finger. They make all kinds of things happen. That increases my stress, but I’m not alone. Right. You know, your spouse may be upset at [00:08:00] you, your boss may be upset at you. You’re stuck at some place that you can’t get out of. Whatever it is, there’s an election you don’t like because something bad’s gonna happen. I mean, there’s, it’s constant. So that fight or fight mechanism when it’s episodic.
You’re giving a big speech or you’re in an athletic event, that’s good, but when it happens constantly throughout the day, it actually increases inflammation, increases something called cortisol, causes inflammation in that gut wall. So to me, purpose driven living abates that, decreases that stress, and it helps you be more mindful.
If someone next to me, you know, is upset at me, you know what, I’m okay because, you know, you’re motivated, you’re, you’re purpose driven, and that brings down some of these factors that increase stress and increase not just stress in the figurative sense, but actually the changes physiologically in your body.
That’s my first, first pillar. The second one is what we talked about a little bit, which is food. I don’t like the word diet. Because the moment you are, [00:09:00] you put the word diet, that’s a synonym for failure. ’cause nobody I know can stick to a diet because they say, don’t do this, don’t do that. Right. You get off it.
I’ve noticed it personally. All my patients are that way. I, I talk about just having a food plan and I say the biggest weapon against disease is your fork. That is the number one weapon that you have against disease. And what you take and put that fork in your food and what you put in your mouth is going to be so important.
And I ask people to do something revolutionary, something unheard of. Go into your kitchen and cook and actually cut up some stuff and make it and not just sit there and have coffee and watch TV and order food out, right? I mean, I do that with my kids and it’s, and it, it, there’s multiple reasons why it’s helpful, but the very simple thing is, you know, what’s in your food, right?
You have to know what’s in your food. And to me, it’s not some elaborate plan. I have a ton of recipes in my book as well.
Dorothy: Yes.
Dr. Nandi: Coconut curry [00:10:00] chicken. I mean, you know, amazing salads, but beyond that, if you just have an array of, you know, of plant based foods, it doesn’t matter what you like, if you like cauliflower, if you like okra, whatever it is, still deep fry them all and, and cook them, cook them in a way that you like to, to, to, to make, put some, for example, turmeric and cumin and, and gut friendly spices. And I talk about how to do that. And then try not to incorporate a bunch of processed foods. What I mean by that is not just processed carbs like sugar, but also processed fats. So to me, a pepperoni pizza is an atomic bomb because it has bad fats and bad carbohydrates and preservatives.
Now, I’m not, I’m not crazy here. You know, I don’t think that you can live your life every single day doing that. I follow the 80/20 rule, or if you can, the 90 percent of the time. Do that. Whole Foods, know what’s in it, but 10 to 20 percent of the time, I got to go to birthday parties. I don’t want to give them a menu list of don’t give me [00:11:00] this or that, right?
I mean, that’s just not real. But if you do it 80 to 90 percent of the time, you’re still doing better than 95 percent of the, of our country and the Western Hemisphere, but what it does is feeds that gut and it feeds that gut microbiome. That’s the trillion member army in your gut. Bacteria, viruses, protozoa, fungi that actually can uplift your health because they’re the, they’re the mediators.
They’re the ones who are making the stuff that’s making your gut wall healthy. They’re making short chain fatty acids. They’re making the neurotransmitters like Serotonin, the feel good hormone, uh, that’s what’s going, gonna do it. So that’s my second pillar. Very important. And, and food people understand that.
The third pillar is movement, but not just movement. Movement, movement with purpose. And I give this story often. You know what, where I practice Dorothy and Detroit, I enjoy one of my favorite hobbies is vulture watching. And people look at me like, what’s going on? They have vultures in Detroit? Well, I am in a medical office building where I can have [00:12:00] this direct view of this super gym where a thousand people can go in there and I enjoy watching these vultures, they come in different forms, Volkswagens, BMWs, little Teslas.
And they’re circling, Dorothea, circling that parking lot because, you know, they got to go right next to the gym. Because they don’t wanna walk a single step when they go in the gym. And like I always say, if people could just pick them up like they’re like in a chariot and take ’em right to the treadmill, they’d love it.
And they call that movement. To me, that is not movement. That is just taking something and not incorporating into your life. So it’s okay to go to the gym, but if the rest of the time you sit around. And, and, and watch TV and look at your phone. That’s not movement with purpose. So movement with purpose and studies have shown this that can help your health, including gut health, is incorporating into your life, playing with your kids, walking, you know, working in the garden, walking with your dogs, going up and down the stairs when you’re at work, incorporating that in your life. So it’s meaningful.
And how does that help your gut health? Right? [00:13:00] What it does is remember the gut is a muscular organ and movement, um, It helps the entire GI system work the way it’s supposed to, to increase gut health, wall integrity, microbiome. It also changes the energy homeostasis to be able to provide the environment for the gut to thrive.
So that’s my third pillar, which is movement with purpose. The fourth one is what you’re doing today. Which is community, community, community, community. Having a supportive system in place to be able to abate that fight or flight mechanism. I often quote a study that we talk about called The Rosetto Effect. R O S E T T O. Rosetto, Pennsylvania in the 1950s. Italian immigrants that were there. And what they found there, Dorothy, was that these folks in the 1950s were hardly getting any heart attacks. They were living to their 80s and 90s and thriving there. And people said, what gives? What is it that they’re doing?
Only one factor. Was different than the rest of the, of, of that, that, that state and mainly the country. And that was [00:14:00] community. They worked together, talked with each other. When they asked people, Hey, how are you doing? They actually wanted to find out how you’re doing, and they didn’t just want a one word answer.
That community and that connection protected them from disease, and we now know that if that community can protect us from multiple diseases, including diseases of the gut and the brain. The last pillar is spirituality. And so automatically when I talk to my patients about spirituality, they say, well, I don’t want to pray.
I’m not a religious. I say, well, that’s fine. If you want to pray, you can. If you don’t, that’s okay. But you can just do something as simple as breathing for five minutes. You know, and just not doing anything besides that. If you want to do yoga, if you want to do Tai Chi, I like to meditate. But, you know, whatever you can do to just have an idea of what your place is in this planet.
We’re a society, and now a world of isolation, right? We, we often are lost in what we’re doing, and that results in some of the things you talked about, [00:15:00] depression, anxiety. But it also changes the level of inflammation in your gut. And that leads to inflammation in the rest of your body. So to me, the five pillar system is tremendous.
And if you met my kids, Dorothy, and you say, Hey, who is your dad’s favorite superhero? You would never hear Superman or Spider Man. It’d always be one answer. It’s Batman. And why is that? Because he is an ordinary dude that has a bunch of weapons and cool cars that make him powerful.
And I would offer that people are like me. That are normal. But if they have these tools, these five pillars, they become health superheroes and can really change and uplift not only their gut health and their brain health, but their overall health. We have many blue zones in the world that people are living through their nineties and a hundred Dorothy, not in nursing homes, not stuck in tubes and, and barely recognizing people are thriving in their communities, and they follow some of these principles I talk about. And it’s all evidence based. It’s not just me talking about this intuitively, but you [00:16:00] can see evidence of each of these pillars.
Dorothy: That is so important. I, I, I was so glad you said when you said spirituality, people went, Ah, I don’t want to go to church. I don’t want to do this. And that is not, that is not what spirituality is. In fact, one of the values of The Rose that my employees put together was spirituality. And I said, you know, you’re not going to find that as a value in an organization that is not faith based. But they were so clear that what we do, we can’t do it by ourselves.
And we, we are doing it for a whole different reason. And, uh, you can’t live in this breast cancer world very long not to appreciate the importance of connections. If we don’t have that support system, I, I see it over and over again. And it doesn’t have to be huge. It just needs to be those people that you love and love you and are there.
To, to really give you that sounding board, [00:17:00] you know, I love that you said you can eat out once a week.
Dr. Nandi: Yes.
Dorothy: You know, instead of it being you without, you know, you shall not eat out, but I, you know, who does not eat out? Come on. This, I think that’s was part of the genius of your book. Your, the magic was that you gave us some things we could do, not everything that we couldn’t do. So talk—
Dr. Nandi: When you have kids, you know, when you have kids, you got to be real because, you know, you have to go to those birthday parties and they only have one menu item typically in every one of them, and that’s pizza. And that’s it!
Dorothy: Right, right. Well, you know, whenever you’re feeding a big group, it’s the easiest thing.
Dr. Nandi: That’s right.
Dorothy: I love the turmeric, uh, recipes and, and I was glad that you added in there because people, when I, when I talk about that, they’ll go, ooh. Indian food. I don’t like that. I don’t like that curry. I don’t like that stuff. But turmeric has very little taste. How does it [00:18:00] really work?
Dr. Nandi: Yeah, no, it’s just, you’re so right. You can put turmeric in your eggs. You can put it anywhere. Cumin is a little different, right? Because it changes the taste of the food and you have to acquire it. And again, Indian food, and I’ll go back to your question. Indian food, like anything else, right? If you have chili in Texas, you can have it where, you know, you’re dying.
Right? Because it’s so spicy. Or you can have it mild. Right? So Indian food is the same way. You can ask for it with as much spice, as much whatever you want. They’ll typically make it for you. So, you know, I don’t want to be, I don’t want people to be afraid of it. And the reason why I’m bringing that up is when you go to India, it’s one of the lowest places in the planet with dementia.
Right, when you talk to, when my patients talk to me, the biggest fear they have is even more than death is losing their mind. They cannot, they just don’t want that. And so, if you can adopt a food lifestyle, right, that incorporates having [00:19:00] one of the lowest rates of dementia, why not? So how does turmeric work, right?
So multiple ways, it’s an anti inflammatory, number one, right, that’s number one. It gives you good gut wall integrity. It also helps you maintain that microbiome that’s positive. So microbiome is just a word that talks about the, you know, the bugs in your intestinal system. And, and then remember, they’re prebiotics, which is the food for these bugs, which are called the probiotics.
And then the postbiotics are the stuff that it makes. So turmeric actually helps the environment for these bugs to proliferate as well as decreasing the inflammation that’s, that’s present in your, in your body. And if you look at autoimmune diseases, you look at brain diseases, you look at gut diseases, it is an ancient remedy for, for so many of them.
And people, if you don’t even want to take it, I would, I would love to incorporate in my food. That’s because I’ve, but I’m Indian and I’ve done it my entire life. But people even can take, if you [00:20:00] take high quality, look at the, where it’s manufactured, high quality turmeric pills. That is also super important to be able to do that.
In addition, I think If you do something that’s also pretty profound is have fermented food with each meal. So fermented foods are good because they contain right thousands, if not millions of these colonies of good bugs. It’s, and it’s nice for us because throughout our history in human, you know, in human history, we, we used to have preserved, preserved these foods that we didn’t have refrigerators for by fermenting them.
So, whether it’s pickles, whether it’s kimchi, whatever culture you’re in, these fermented foods, if you put those with every single meal, right, if you eat those every single meal, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, I’ve, I’ve had my kids do it and they all like different things, some like cottage cheese, some, some like non dairy products.
If you like drinks, there’s Tapashe, there’s all kinds of, you know, you know, drinks like Kombucha. Some of my, some of my staff [00:21:00] that work in my, in my unit drink Kombucha. So, you, if you incorporate that into every meal, that changes your microbiome. And, and what’s interesting is that if you change your microbiome, you can actually change the course of disease.
I would offer to you, you know, the Alzheimer’s that’s, that’s crippling you at age 70. Actually started at age 50. The, the Parkinson’s that started at age six, that, that are presenting itself. It’s presenting itself at age 60, started at age 40. You can see changes in your gut wall called Lewy bodies that you saw, that you see in your brain when you have full blown Parkinson’s.
So the time to act. It’s not only when you have the problems. A lot of people say, Doc, I’m good. I don’t have any problems. It’s when you don’t have symptoms you can prevent them. And you can change the equations by doing some of the simple things we talked about. In animal studies and human studies we see, so for example with stroke, you know, which my dad had, if you look at mice, Dorothy, that young mice that have strokes, but they’ve been given [00:22:00] the gut of an older mouse, they often die or have horrible outcomes.
Conversely, if you have older mice and you give them the microbiome of a, of a young mouse, they thrive. And so changing that gut and changing the gut health can not only uplift you with your, your gut itself, but it changes other things in your brain. And we now know because the relationships, even things like malignancies and cancer, if you look at chemotherapy, this is not, you know, I talk about gut and brain in my book, but even if you go further than that, if you look at chemotherapy and the effects of chemotherapy and how effective it is, you can see patterns in a patient’s gut that can determine, hey, is this gonna be more effective right than others? Remember, you know, the way chemotherapy, as you know, works is, is by, by attaching itself to certain cells. But if, if you don’t have the right environment to be able to make that successful, right? And you have gut inflammation. [00:23:00] You’re continuing that cycle of inflammation that started this whole process, even cancer, right? All diseases, virtually all diseases begin with inflammation. If you don’t decrease that inflammation, you are, you’re basically going upstream the whole time and changing your gut health can change that equation.
Dorothy: And you know what you were saying about, um, uh, the inflammation is so important. I mean, we hear this all the time. I don’t, I don’t imagine any country or any civilization is not concerned about brain health right now. You know, I know in the United States, oh my gosh, the people that I know who have lost loved ones are, are dealing with loved ones going through that. It’s, it’s extraordinary. It is, uh. It would be fascinating if we had something, and I don’t want to say as simple as this, but it is in many ways simple, that could really impact it.
Dr. Nandi: Takes guts, right? It takes guts. I mean, when you [00:24:00] drive, when you drive back to your hometown, you, every billboard, has a sign that that attracts you to do something against any of those pillars I talk about, right?
Don’t have purpose driven living. Just do this. It’s simple, right? Right. Don’t exercise. Take this pill, right? You don’t need spirituality, you don’t need prayer, you don’t need nothing. All you need to do is watch this video or do something. It’s everywhere. So, although it’s simple, it’s incredibly brave to be able to do the things that you do.
Because if you, you know, the problem is that if you, if, if, if, if concept is simple, but why are 99 percent of people not doing it, right? Because we have so many other choices that seemingly are, are easier. And I’ll tell you, you talked about the world, right? And it’s not just the United States that’s suffering from this.
The problem is that the world is taking on our lifestyle because they think we’re just the coolest things on the planet. Despite what the, you know, we see in the media, the world still looks up to this [00:25:00] country. I was in Mumbai airport, Dorothy, and I was like, I saw this big crowd of people at the airport. I said, Oh, this is going to be some good food. So I’m walking over there trying to find out what the crowd’s in. It was KFC.
Dorothy: I know.
Dr. Nandi: I am not against KFC. I’m not trying to hate KFC, but come on, really?
Dorothy: Right. Right. Yes.
Dr. Nandi: And of course, if Indians are eating KFC and not eating their turmeric based Indian curries. Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, welcome. So this is what’s happening. They’re about 10 years behind. When I was in the United Arab Emirates, their diseases that they’re having literally is a decade behind us, but they’re all coming. So the opportunity is tremendous, not only for us in this part of the world, but worldwide.
And so I’m hoping that people look at books like this and say, you know what? Let’s wake up and see what we can do as a society. And I’m hoping that it ignites at least some thought in folks to be able to change their lives.
Dorothy: Oh, I think it will. Heal your gut, save your brain. This is a New York Time bestseller. We have its author right here with us today. [00:26:00] One of the things I wanted not to let you get away before I ask you, I was listening to your TED Talk from 2013. And remember you talked then about our access to healthcare. Now my organization is all about that. Has anything changed a decade later?
Dr. Nandi: I think it has, but it’s not as much as we, we want it to be because what’s happened is that to me something amazing happened, which is called COVID was horrific, but at the same time changed how we did things.
So now, you know, you don’t have to drive 400 miles to go see your doctor. This thing called telehealth has changed everything. I can see someone in South Africa. I can see someone in Texas. I can see someone anywhere, at least to be able to give them some advice. And I think technology, and I talked about it then, technology is going to be, you know, people poo poo it, but technology is going to be the factor that connects us and connects us in ways that, It never did before.
And with what’s happening with artificial intelligence, [00:27:00] unfortunately and fortunately there’s not enough of us out there to be able to take it. And so if we have ways in which we can examine someone, you know, and really be able to look and feel and touch, where we couldn’t before, it’s going to be a good start to be able to deliver that.
I mean, think about it. This is the 1950s. Nobody would hear this, right? You wouldn’t find it unless you happen to stumble upon somebody. That’s the difference, you know, they can listen to your podcast and your show and you can learn amazing things. That’s the difference, even from 2013, where podcasts, I didn’t think people thought about that.
Dorothy: No, no, this is really the new age of our life. One other thing, how important is being out in nature?
Dr. Nandi: A hundred percent in your mind? A hundred percent. I think first of all, movement is u is is huge, and being out where we’re we’re supposed to be is so important. Meaning that just, again, talking about just breathing and stopping when you breathe and you concentrate on breathing out in nature.[00:28:00]
Guess what you’re not doing? You’re not thinking about your job, you’re not thinking about your kids, or whatever the heck it is that’s bothering you. That act by itself is enough to be able to reduce some of that fight or flight and that cortisol just for a few minutes. You do that ten times a day, boy, you’re changing your life.
Dorothy: That’s absolutely, totally believe in that. Thank you so much for being with us. Any last words for our listeners?
Dr. Nandi: Well, you know, what I want to let them know is that change like this is not monumental, meaning it’s not unreachable. Just make simple steps in these five pillars every day and you can reach your goal in no time at all.
Dorothy: Oh, great advice. Thank you again so much for being with us. And again, you need to read this book. It is so good. Tell us again what its name is.
Dr. Nandi: Yeah, Heal Your Gut, Save Your Brain, and it’s available anywhere books are sold. Amazon, Barnes Noble, whatever. You go to books, go to our website at AskDrNandi.com. You’ll be able to find it.
Dorothy: All right. Thank you again.
Dr. Nandi: Thanks for having me.
Post-Credits: Thank you for joining us today on [00:29:00] Let’s Talk About Your Breasts. This podcast is produced by Speke Podcasting and brought to you by The Rose. Visit therose.org to learn more about our organization. Subscribe to our podcast, share episodes with friends, and join the conversation. You can also follow us on social media using #LetsTalkAboutYourBreasts. We welcome your feedback and suggestions. Consider supporting The Rose. Your gift can make the difference to a person in need. Remember, self care is not selfish. It’s essential.
