Dorothy: [00:00:00] Kirk Cox knows a lot about cancer and a lot about grief. As a young boy, he watched his mother go through breast cancer. And this was in the 60s. She had to have very invasive surgeries and treatment, and all of that really left a mark on Kirk. And then he had to manage his Aunt Dottie’s care, and then he had to face the loss of his own child. Listen to Kirk talk about his experience, about how he has handled his own grief, and about how it is a life long process.
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Let’s Talk About Your Breasts, a different kind of podcast presented to you by The Rose, [00:01:00] the Breast Center of Excellence, and a Texas treasure. You’re going to hear a frank discussion about tough topics, and you’re gonna learn why knowing about your breast could save your life.
Kirk, thank you so much for being with us today. It’s, it’s just such a pleasure to have you here.
Kirk: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Dorothy: So you were introduced to breast cancer in your family at a very early age, so tell us a little bit about that.
Kirk: Yeah, so surely, uh, back in the sixties, you know, there was not as much information out about breast cancer as there is today. And so, being a small child, around second grade, I believe, I really didn’t even know what cancer was. My mother was a school teacher, and so she did a very good job explaining it, but it was very frightening time for us. And, uh, she, we went to a family [00:02:00] doctor, um, that was a part of our church and she, uh, knew that there was something not right.
And so the doctor said, you know, you’ll be okay and, you know, give it some time. And so I’m a little unclear on the, uh, the diagnosis, but it wasn’t, uh, that she had breast cancer at the time. It wasn’t until a little bit later that they discovered it. And they put her in a hospital and she had a mastectomy at the time. And so, we were just trying to figure out what all of this was. Back in the late 60s, if you were under 12, really, get too much access to a hospital. And so as my mother came out of that surgery, my father had us, uh, come to the hospital and all we could do is stand outside and wave at her from the window. Um, but in those days, the treatment was just a lot different, uh, than it is today.
Dorothy: True. And I, my mother had cancer in the sixties and, uh, it was just a whole [00:03:00] different world. I mean, there, there wasn’t much in what was there was. Really, really hard on the body.
Kirk: Yes. And so she went through that. And so the, the surgery is just from my opinion, I’m not a doctor, but way more invasive than what it is today. And so they performed that surgery on her and then they gave her, uh, I don’t want to say massive amounts, but they gave her heavy amounts of radiation, which was kind of a typical protocol back then.
And, uh, do not believe that she had chemotherapy back then. If she did, I just don’t remember because I don’t remember going through the sick times, but, um, her stay in the hospital was a lot longer than, than what I’ve seen today. Uh, so, but she struggled through that on her own and she managed to stand strong. And, uh, as a child, uh, uh, I look back now and, realize that her whole goal was to stay strong for her kids, so that her kids didn’t see her going through any type of [00:04:00] weakness or sickness, and that she would be okay. That was the main thing.
Dorothy: So she survived for a bit.
Kirk: She survived quite a while. So her first bout was in the 60s. Her second bout was in the 70s, late 70s. And even in a 10 year span of time, technology changes. At that point in time, she had more dedicated physicians. And, um, the hospital that she went into is more dedicated to, to cancer itself. Um, and so the second time they discovered, uh, some cancerous areas in her lymph nodes.
And so, uh, once again, she had mastectomy done, uh, this time they, uh, removed quite a bit of her lymph node area, uh, which caused, uh, a lot of problems down the road, but then she also went through chemotherapy too. And I remember. Uh, seeing her going through that and trying to, to stay strong and, but I was old enough to understand, uh, that she would get sick and she did. [00:05:00] But she struggled through it and, and, and did very well with it and literally was cancer free for a number of years.
Dorothy: Were you, as a child, worried that your mother was going to die?
Kirk: I don’t know if that entered my mind, because she was so strong and she was determined that she was going to be okay.
Dorothy: Yeah.
Kirk: And I personally, I believe that’s a big part of that healing process is having that positive mindset and that reinforcement. The sad thing about it is, uh, I think she might’ve done a whole lot better for family, we’ve been right there with her, understanding the reasons why not at that time that they, you know, wouldn’t allow us in, but, uh, but she stayed strong and I really didn’t fear it then, because I just knew mom would be okay.
Dorothy: So fast forward, you, your mom’s now gone on and you suddenly have the responsibility of another person.
Kirk: Yes.
Dorothy: And that is your aunt, Dottie?
Kirk: Yes. [00:06:00]
Dorothy: Tell us about her.
Kirk: So my aunt was always under the care of my grandmother and she had had a high rheumatic fever when she was young and so she’d been placed in a facility, kind of mislabeled as “mentally retarded”. And so My grandmother passed the torch on to my mother to take care of my aunt. And my mother would have me take her there. I would go visit all the time. And eventually she said, well, you know, you’re going to have to take this over one day. And I’m, and I think part of me was in denial. I’m like, no, that won’t happen, mom.
I mean, I can’t see you ever leaving, you know? Uh, but the day came and, uh, So then, now I’m in charge of my aunt, and within a year after my mother passing, my aunt was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I will say this, knowing the history of your family helps. I think that helped guide them to make sure that they were giving her the checks that she needed with the mammograms.
And so they found out breast cancer, but the [00:07:00] entire illness with cancer for her was just so vastly different than with my mom. She went to a local hospital. Her treatment was nearby. Didn’t have to take her very far. Her oncologist was nearby. They did a mastectomy. She stayed maybe a couple of days in the hospital.
And they gave her some very minor chemotherapy and I never once saw her get sick from it.
Dorothy: Wow, that’s a big change in just a couple of three decades.
Kirk: Yes.
Dorothy: Yes, yes. Well, that’s the good news about treatment and the good news about why we have so many survivors of breast cancer is because of that additional treatment. Now, you Is your Aunt Dotty still around?
Kirk: No, she ended up developing another type of skin cancer that kind of brought things to an end for her. Um, and so she’s been gone now a couple of years.
Dorothy: So, Kirk, talking with you earlier, you said you’ve seen more cancer than [00:08:00] you ever wanted to.
Kirk: Absolutely.
Dorothy: And was that primarily in your work position, family position?
Kirk: A little bit of both. Um, my earliest, uh, experience with cancer was a young child having my tonsils and adenoids removed and being in a room with a young boy my age who had brain tumors and didn’t really know enough about that either. Uh, went back to visit and he’d passed away already. So, um, kind of had some of that experience early on. I had one of my very good friends, um, have brain tumors, uh, come out of it. And then I was basically at his bedside just shortly before he passed. Uh, so between my, my family and my friends, been around more than I want to.
Dorothy: Uh huh. So even though you’ve been witness to death, close to death, and have felt that kind of grief, [00:09:00] I know you’re here to talk about a different kind of grief. So will you, are you comfortable sharing that part?
Kirk: Sure. So keep in mind, you know, a lot of these things just kind of fit like a puzzle and play, but, um, my son back in 2006 or 7, actually it was around 23 and just a very energetic, full of life, uh, young man. And so, uh, back at that point in time, he had taken a job and he and I would talk every day. Um, he had two best friends. Um, they were just inseparable. Uh, they decided to go on a fishing trip. And so, when I went to San Rayburn, got out on the lake and they were fishing. And so, a storm came up on the lake and they were catching fish though.
And as you look back on it and discover all these things, I said, why would you fish when it’s that bad of a storm? And the answer was, because you [00:10:00] catch more fish. So, the people on the shore that were witness to it all said that they brought the boat back in because it was taking on water, so they dumped the water out of the boat, and what do you think a 23 year old kid who’s catching fish would do at that point?
Dorothy: Turned around and went out again.
Kirk: Turned right around and went right back out. And he and his best friend, and his best friend, Eli, was a little bit bigger than he, Davis. Pretty small stature. But as they were out on the boat, the storm just got worse. And somehow the boat got tangled up and my son’s best friend went overboard. Now, that’s your best friend, he’s gone overboard. What are you gonna do? And know what I know about safety and about rescuing, it’s just very, very difficult to rescue somebody, but I would have done the same thing.
Uh, the only thing I would say is that they should have had life jackets on. They didn’t, but he went over and both of them, uh, lost their life in that lake. And so [00:11:00] it was pretty tragic. Um, we had a funeral for both of them at the same time. There was probably a thousand people at that funeral.
Dorothy: How did you find out?
Kirk: Uh, so they got the identification, made calls back, and my daughter called me. I was actually, I spent a few years in Iowa, and I was in Iowa at the time. So, uh, when she called, um, uh, it’s the news that no parent wants to get. Uh, the worst news ever. Um, and that began the process of grief for me. Uh, which is very, very tough.
And at first, um, You’re shocked, you’re just in denial. You just can’t believe something like that would happen. A parent’s not supposed to lose their child. And I’ve since come into acquaintance with a number of folks who have lost their children as well. And so it touches very deeply. But what you do, I guess I [00:12:00] did like my mom.
I tried to stay strong and tough for my family. And so, grief is kind of a tough thing. And for me personally, um, I just, I shoved it inside. Which is not a good thing to do. Um, but you try to get through the, the trauma part of it. And then, uh, if it’s okay, I’ll just share about some of that grief. But when you get through that trauma part, um, you start looking for answers as to why.
And so, uh, you can get into a blame game where you’re blaming a lot of things and blaming yourself. And Uh, and at the end of the day, you have to come to a realization that none of that really matters. Uh, what matters is you don’t have your loved one anymore. And so, you try to wrap your family around you and do the best you can with that. But uh, you know, to try to stay strong and to act like everything’s okay is tough too, especially when you’re harboring [00:13:00] so much grief inside.
Dorothy: What does that feel like? What does grief like that feel like?
Kirk: It’s just, uh, it’s, it’s just so massive. Um, and I, I guess I do a pretty good job of hiding that. Um, and so people didn’t know what to say and I didn’t necessarily want them to say anything. Um, I wanted to hold it in private and keep it to myself. And so, but, your day to day functions can be affected by that. You get distracted by things. Um, I got so distracted and so much that when I went back to work, uh, in a plant, I got my finger caught in a door, just total distraction, and I lost the end of my finger.
Dorothy: So, but you’re a safety.
Kirk: I’m a safety.
Dorothy: Engineer. You’re the, you’re the person looking for all those kind of things, right?
Kirk: Yes. And so that, for that to happen to me, and at the time, I would never have admitted that it was a distraction. But when I went back and looked at it, it was truly a distraction.
Dorothy: How long was that time before you could go back and look?[00:14:00]
Kirk: Uh, it took probably a couple of years because, uh, you just go through phases of even with that of, of being in safety and, uh, but what I will say this and not, not to change things, but before I came back here, one of the best things that I did with this is, uh, the funeral director in Iowa where I was at, uh, just said, look, I’ve got an option. I’ve got a grief counselor. If you’d like to go talk, uh, it’s absolutely free. And I battled with that because you have a lot of male pride and you don’t want to do that. That was the best thing I ever did.
Dorothy: So did, so it took you a bit though.
Kirk: It took me a bit. Yeah. I had to let go and I had to go in there. And so one of the things that she helped me realize right off the bat, and it’s amazing how you can recognize those things. She said, you’re, you’re shoving your grief, you’re, you’re hiding inside, aren’t you? And I said, yeah. I said, you got to figure out how to deal with this. And no two deaths are the [00:15:00] same.
Um, and so I get very aggravated when someone says, well, I know what you’ve gone through. No, you really don’t. And I never say that because you really don’t know what somebody’s gone through. And I’ve been around kids who’ve tragically died one reason or another, suicide or whatever. And the best I can say is I’ve, I’ve been in a similar situation.
I understand, but she helped me to realize that I needed to figure out a way to pull that grief off the shelf and deal with it. And I needed to deal with it on a somewhat frequent basis. Otherwise, it would build up and cause the amount of anxiety and, and suffering that I went through without it. And so that’s probably one of the most difficult things, even to this day, to do is to be able to pull it down. So, um —
Dorothy: You mean it’s still sitting on the shelf at times?
Kirk: Oh yes. Oh yes. But I talk about it a lot more freely now, uh, but it’s, it’s amazing because all it takes is [00:16:00] one song, one picture, uh, one memory, and then the tears come. Then you’re back. Mm hmm. So it, it’s a tough, it’s a tough thing, but, uh, but I will say this, learning to deal with it and involve people that love you, helps.
Dorothy: Are you back at the moment you heard that David was gone? Are you back in that moment of when he was alive.
Kirk: So, sometimes, uh, I prefer, uh, not to dwell upon, uh, his accident or him, uh, not being here anymore. What you, what I do is I go back and look at the times we spent together. Um, I go back and look to the last pictures I have of him, uh, the last family trip that we had together, and he was feeding a deer out of, out of his hand. Uh, things like that. Yeah.
Dorothy: Yeah. But you miss them.
Kirk: Oh, yes.
Dorothy: So, [00:17:00] what, and I’m fascinated by what your counselor told you about, you have it on a shelf and you have to take it down. Did you physically image that or how did you do that? How did you take it off the shelf?
Kirk: Well, it’s, I had to just pull it off and deal with it. And that meant a lot of tears, a lot of crying, a lot of, uh, Just battling through that, uh, the rough spots together and then coming to grips that, um, I’ve got to find the positive in it. And, and mama taught me that, uh, my mother taught me that, uh, especially going through cancer and always try to find good in it.
And so that’s been the struggle of my life is finding the good. Because it makes no sense as to why it would be good that you don’t have your, your child with you anymore. Uh, has it helped me as a person, uh, to be a little bit [00:18:00] better? Yes. And one thing I will say about this is my son, uh, he was a junior by the way, so his name was Kirk as well, but we called him David.
Uh, he was the most happy go lucky kid you’d ever know. I remember he would get mad at somebody or something, and then within a day or so, it was like it never happened. He had washed it all away, best friends again. Uh, and so, that was the thing that struck me the most, uh, with his passing. Uh, and I’ve told my family, I’ve told many people this, don’t let anger, don’t let these misunderstandings get the best of you. Find the best in people and let go of it. And you’ll be much happier, you know, find resolution, find forgiveness. And, uh, It will fare you much better. And I’ve tried to live that principle, like you would just live life in a happy go lucky manner as much as you can.
Dorothy: The time that it took you to be [00:19:00] able to come to grips with it. Was that a year, two years, still going on?
Kirk: It is, yeah, it’s a constant thing. Um, and the funny thing about grief is that it, you really never know when something is going to trigger that grief. But I think what people don’t realize is if it’s at that point time when it’s being triggered, that if you, you know, put it under, subside it, you basically shelf it, that’s when you’re going to have more problems.
It’s not always convenient to be able to cry in front of a lot of people and whatnot, but you have to find that time to do that. So, uh, you’re driving down the road and a song comes up and you think of your lost loved one, uh, embrace it. Get through it, and it really will help you.
Dorothy: How do you honor his memory today?
Kirk: Oh, so many ways. I planted a tree in my backyard. I have some of his things that he had that I’ll, for the first time since he’s [00:20:00] passed away, I performed a wedding for some very good friends of mine, and it was just the right time. I don’t, can’t explain why, but he had some, um, Puka shell, uh, necklace and I wore it for the wedding in honor of him and I’ve never done that.
Dorothy: Interesting.
Kirk: Yes.
Dorothy: You kept some of his things.
Kirk: Oh yes, oh yes. I still have a cap that was his, an A& M cap, so we’re Aggie fans.
Dorothy: Yeah, right. So you’ve been, you’ve been quasi counselor for others who have lost people, it sounds like. Do they find you or do you just make yourself available?
Kirk: I just try to make myself available. Um, first and foremost, if someone doesn’t really want to talk about it, you’re, there’s nothing I can do to get someone to talk about it. And so I just make myself available if, if you want to talk about it. I’ve seen way too many kids that have, have gone on and [00:21:00] with parents that are left remaining. Um, uh, Barb’s got one of those. Her brother lost their daughter. And so you just you just try to make yourself available. And that’s exactly what I did with him. I told him look, I’m here if you want to talk about it. So it takes a while for people to open up and be able to talk.
Dorothy: But isn’t that all we can do? Just be there?
Kirk: That’s a good question. I really would like to do more and I think I actually got involved in a meeting, a Grief Share at a church that had common folks that would come together that had lost loved ones and just to talk about it in more of a group type setting. So my desire is to be able to. to, uh, to look into that more. I’d like to possibly do a podcast on grief where I can have some of those folks that I know come in and talk about it from their perspective and their angle, and then to hopefully help somebody out there who [00:22:00] may be struggling with not even knowing how to grieve.
Dorothy: How to grieve, yeah. Do men speak up as much as women in those groups?
Kirk: Not as much. Uh, men are just. as my, myself, um, just, it’s harder. You just want, you want to try to be tougher. And so it’s very hard to get most men to open up and talk about it, which I’m quite surprised that the grief counselor I had was able to, you know, peer in and get me to talk, but she did. And so that’s the kind of thing I want to give back.
Dorothy: And how did you feel once you could talk about it?
Kirk: Oh, loads better. You know, the load comes off. Not that it goes away. It just comes off and you’re like, it’s like you’re taking a breath again.
Dorothy: So many times I hear folks not with that, that kind of grief, but even the breast cancer journey can be tough. And like, [00:23:00] sounds like a little bit like your mom, you know, they, they have to be strong for the family, but the moment that they say, you know, I need some help, then things shift. There’s a difference in their physical being, a difference in their mental being.
Kirk: I think it’s just important to get them to understand that it’s okay to ask for help. And so, if I can send a message out anywhere, that would be what I would want to say. You know, if you’re struggling with grief, and I struggle with it with my mother, And so you just do, but you have to find a way to, to deal with it. And with my mother in the case of cancer, she was such a long time survivor that when she finally, uh, passed away, uh, I now live in the house that, uh, I grew up in, uh, was kind of talked into it from family who were very sentimental, but it really became a healing measure too, because just as my mother would do, she would sit outside and watch nature and birds. And that’s exactly what I do. And to honor her.
Dorothy: Mm [00:24:00] hmm. But that alone can be, uh, therapeutic.
Kirk: Absolutely.
Dorothy: You know, it’s amazing how many people now are being encouraged, just go outside, just be in nature. Forget all the stuff you’re hearing inside and watching the news and all that. I mean, that can drain us in a way we don’t even realize.
Kirk: True, very true. To get outside and to be able to see the birds and then you find yourself saying some of the things your mom would say and it’s like you can feel that, I can feel her presence with me if I could say it that way.
Dorothy: Oh, of course. I mean, we believe that there’s a lot more to us than just what we see here and now.
Kirk: Absolutely. And she would, she’d be so honored that I’m here today.
Dorothy: So do you, do you still find yourself talking to David?
Kirk: Oh yeah. Um, I mean, it’s, there’s not a day that goes by that, that I [00:25:00] don’t think of him, not one day. Uh, it’s just some days. There’s way more involvement in what I’m thinking about and doing than other days and, uh, so it’s just one of those things that you have to learn to comprehend or recognize those days when they come and figure out what to do and not let them go by too quickly.
Dorothy: And sometimes just saying, I’m in that day can help. Yeah, because your loved ones don’t always pick up on what it is you’re doing.
Kirk: That’s exactly true. So I’ll say this just for the sake of, uh, my better half being here. There’s many times that she’s questioned. It’s because I won’t say that’s what I’m going through, but she knows me well enough.
Dorothy: Yeah, it takes a while.
Kirk: Yeah, it does.
Dorothy: But you can kind of pick it up. You know, you know something’s on their mind.
Kirk: Right. Yes. She can pick it up now.
Dorothy: So, Kirk, this has been so informative. [00:26:00] Tell our listeners one thing, two things, that the kindest thing anyone did to get, help you get through, or anything that, that you remember that we could be like that when we’re with someone who’s just had such a horrible thing happen.
Kirk: You know, uh, I would say, try to dwell and focus on the positive things, um, and memorialize them. Um, talk about them.
Dorothy: Should we be afraid to mention the persons who’s gone on? Should we be afraid to mention their name or to bring them up or?
Kirk: Shouldn’t, you shouldn’t.
Dorothy: Okay, I, I feel that hesitation sometimes in people, you know. They don’t want to, oh, I might, I might make them upset, or.
Kirk: And that’s true, so, you know, I, I carefully walk [00:27:00] around folks, especially when it’s, uh, so new. Uh, it’s important to know that you have, a group around you, not just family, but friends that support you and that will, will be there for you, uh, when you’re ready.
And it’s also important to, to follow up with some check ins because not everyone is willing to just open up. So sometimes just, you know, just reaching out, checking in on you. How are you doing? Anything I can do? Anything you can talk about? Because I’ve realized with especially parents who lose their children, it’s very tough to talk about sometimes.
Dorothy: Anything else you’d like our listeners to know?
Kirk: No, I mean, I really appreciate being able to be here with you and share, and this is probably one of the first times I’ve shared as much. Uh, but it’s time and I would say that you guys are doing such a great job here and I’m, I’m so impressed by all of it and, uh, I’ve been [00:28:00] around so much and I’ve seen so many small children with cancer too, all of my visits to the hospital and there’s nothing more heart wrenching then to see a child who has no control of their body, having to go through some of these things and much less anyone else with cancer. And so, um, I’m a very big supporter of all that we can do. And I see there’s new technologies coming out all the time and I’m, I still am impressed. I was looking at some today as well, and very impressed with where they’ve come. I think we can do a lot more, uh, both, physically and emotionally. And I’d love to be able to help.
Dorothy: Well, you have, I know today for so many people. Thank you so much for being with us.
Kirk: Thank you for having me.
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